From the film 'Charlie Wilson's War' - a 'bellydance'
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 7:50 AMblech, that was worse that I had imagined. I thought she trained with a famous dancer? -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:10 AM...and they talk real loud during her show too. ; )
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:38 AMMy thinking is that she was not meant to be a "dancer" as we know we are, but to play the part of a erotic dancer dancing for sleazy politicians in the movie. -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:42 AMLooking at other vids of her on U Tube it seems she dances more burlesque to begin with. Might be why she got the part in the movie! LOL! -
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 9:05 AManyway, thrre is no business like show business and you can get away with faking anything, as long as it caters to a wide taste and sells.
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 10:17 AMSadly, U R correct...
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 10:27 AMIt's even worse than I expected. Garh!
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 11:33 AMGirls, you are looking at it from a completely out-of-context perspective. I'd be pretty angry if this were a movie seriously portraying bellydance that way, but in this particular plot it was very clear that this was not a bellydancer, but a stripper disguised as a bellydancer in order to get in there and distract one of the guys. I don't think anybody thought from watching that movie that bellydance actually looks like that. -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 11:41 AMThere's really nothing in the film that educates the general audience about bellydance or its roots, and the music and costume suggest bellydance, so I feel that any audience member who isn't already knowledgeable about what the dance actually is would easily be misunderstood by this clip. The dialog also suggests that the dancer's own family disowns her for her dancing, thus equating shame with it. Thanks, Hollywood (not) for sending us back another decade.
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 2:24 PMUm...I don't know how you get that it's a stripper disguised as a bellydancer when the real dancer she was portraying here was, indeed, a bellydancer. -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 3:09 PMI get that it's a stripper disguised as a bellydancer because I watched the movie. The only other time that character appeared in the movie was at the beginning, where Charlie Wilson met her while hanging out with some strippers. He later thought of her when they needed someone to act as a bellydancer.
So it was very obvious for anyone who watched the whole movie that the dancer was a stripper. That youtube video doesn't even show the whole scene, where she actually looks quite clumsy. It was supposed to be very obvious that she (the stripper character) could not belly dance at all. It was supposed to be funny.
You may still see something wrong with this. You can interpret the scene as implying that belly dance is so easy and vulgar, a stripper can pass off as a belly dancer. I was slightly offended for this reason... but to say this set us back a decade? I strongly disagree.
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 5:12 PMHere's an article about the real Carol Shannon. She definitely wasn't a stripper but actually a very well known dancer in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Oddly, the article makes it sound like she was pretty happy with the portrayal of her in the movie.
www.dailysentinel.com/hp/cont...non.html
dfwmedance.tribe.net/photos/...1e5d0280 -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 5:26 PMAnyway, all those impressions you mention, Diana, are what an educated viewer would come up with. That "bellydancing does not really look like that", "the stripper is trying to bellydance but can't", "bellydancing is more difficult than stripping", "she looked quite clumsy for a bellydancer"- how is any ordinary person who has never seen bellydancing supposed to notice that? All that the general audience is going to think when seeing this is that bellyancing is something strippers do for money and that it is used to get men's attention and seduce them when they are trying to do something more serious. I agree, thanks, Hollywood. Duh.
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 5:41 PMOddly? The article shows that Carol herself did not have a clue what she was doing, so how would she notice that the performance in the movie is not appropriate? See here, quotes from the article Rasha posted:
*The Egyptian secret service "nearly had a fit," Shannon said. She used a sword and laid it flat on the defense minister's head then slid it toward the ear like she was going to cut it off. Then she ran the sword down his chest to his belt buckle.
"They ran and tried to stop me and take the sword on several occasions and Charlie kept saying, 'Leave her alone, it's just part of the dance,'" Shannon said. "Finally the defense minister said, 'It's OK, it's OK.' I know I'm good at my dancing and I wasn't going to hurt anyone, but they kept trying to stop me."
The dance "mesmerized" her Egyptian audience, Shannon said.
"They loved me," Shannon said. "They said I was the best American belly dancer they had ever seen. So that was quite a compliment because as far as we know that's where belly dancing started, and they're very proud of it."
"It's not restrictive like ballet dancing," Shannon said. "It's like freestyle. You can express your own personality, your own feelings. You watch your audience while you're dancing and you work with what you're seeing. You just feed off of them. This fits my personality perfectly because it's a spontaneous dance.
"We can all learn the same steps but it's how you present yourself," Shannon continued. "People love me. I have fun with it. I'm very sensuous but I can cut up and act like a clown too. I'm very good at what I do and I love it."*
So, how would she ever know that the girl's performance does portray give bellydancing appropriately? Her impression that the Egyptians were "mesmerised" may have been true, but they may have been for very different reasons than what she thinks... "The best American bellydancer they have ever seen", uh oh. Praise the subtle sense of Oriental irony.
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 9:39 PMWell, I guess we could hope she was misquoted..... :)
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Mon, July 7, 2008 - 9:25 AMSounds like she knew *exactly* what she was doing to me.
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 6:25 PMWow, I did not know that this aspect of the movie was actually based in history at all... I just thought that part was completely made up (because it is so ridiculous). And I definitely had no clue the woman who did it in real life was actually a belly dancer.
Am I going crazy? I really think in the movie she was a stripper. Now, why would they do that, when the real person was actually a belly dancer? Now I'm confused.
In any case, we are all obviously in agreement that this movie did not portray belly dance accurately or positively, yet still within the plot I think that a non-belly dancer would know that is not what belly dance looks like. Maybe I think this because I am originally from Brazil, where there are sometimes (although not often enough) belly dancers on TV shows or soap operas so everybody has at least an idea what it should look like even if there are still misconceptions or if the portrayal is not completely accurate.
On the other hand, even though there is less belly dance in pop culture here in the US, I still think most people have an inkling. I mean, everybody knows for example what undulations look like and that they are common in belly dance, so much that I often find youtube videos of random girls just bellyrolling or undulating and calling that belly dance,and everyone going along. Then there's Shakira, whom everybody knows belly dances, and again even if she is no accurate portrayal, you can get an idea what it should look like, and that woman in Charlie Wilson's war did not do anything that looked even remotely close to belly dance, not even the "belly dance" of those home youtube videos or of Shakira, which I think is what most Americans relate it to.
Either way, now I'm pretty pissed too that they went out of their way to actually change a historical fact to portray belly dancing in this light. Why would they do that? I mean, they could have had a real belly dancer there and it still (from a general populace perspective) could have been a wonderful, exotic, and sensuous scene. -
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Sat, July 5, 2008 - 10:50 PMWell, Yame, the thing is, she wasn't a bellydancer, she was a stripper. She was a stripper who was asked by (clueless) people to perform bellydance and she imagined she was doing bellydance and was good at it too, that is how clueless she was.
I myself, having no interest in Shakira and other mainstream stuff, did not know what bellydancing looks like until a few years ago. This is not Brazil. ; ) On the European and North American continent most people do not use their hips the way the Latinas do in dancing and don't undulate, unless they have taken dance lessons in dances other than their own, I would reckon.
Yesterday a new girl was in our bellydane class. She was very young, and performed all the bellydance movements very naturally, casually, almost offhand, like she did not have to think about them at all, and, different from everyone else, like it was no big deal, and she was kind of looking around the room sometimnes in a slightly bored way, even. I thought, she might be Turkish but when I asked her, she turned out to be from Brazil. ; ) We do not have people like that here, in our class of Japanese, Americans, Australians and Germans. -
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Sun, July 6, 2008 - 10:56 AMSo the real woman was actually a stripper? How the heck did they pull that off in Egypt? Anyways in that case, you can't exactly blame the movie if it was simply staying true to what happened, and I can see the stripper having been that clueless back then, in what must have been 20+ years ago.
I'd be surprised if I seriously met someone today who has no idea what belly dance actually is, but maybe I've just been clueless all this time. I suppose not much has changed in 20 years. Oh, god! Maybe this whole time I've been telling people I belly dance, they've been thinking "wtf?" inside!
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 3:26 PMNo, the real woman was not a stripper. She was (and is) a bellydancer. Here is a picture (posted on Shira's tribe) of her dancing with Bert Belladine in 1977--several years before going to Egypt with Charlie Wilson. Now, I don't know a lot about Bert Belladine, but the articles I've read by him do not make him seem to be the sort of dancer who would share the stage with a poser who didn't know what they were doing.
Aside from that, I believe in one of those articles it mentions that she was at one time married to another congressman. Somehow I can't see a congressman's wife as a stripper.
If you still doubt that she really is a bellydancer, here is more information on her from the Houston bellydance tribe: bellydancehouston.tribe.net/thre...9413e
If the movie made it seem like she was a strippr posing as a bellydancer, then they have really done her an injustice by reducing an apparenlty well-established and respected career to mere play-acting. -
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 4:35 PMI'm sure a lot of the dancers in this area (Dallas/Fort Worth) who trained with her would take issue with her being called a stripper as well. Without ever seeing her perform, it would be difficult to judge her skill or knowledge of bellydance, and as far as I know, no one has a video of her. I also think it's a little unfair to judge her from quotes in an article which, like I said before, could have been misquoted or taken out of context. Everything I've been told about her reflects an American cabaret bellydancer who had a rather sensual style and was exceptional with a sword and zills. Perhaps some of those who did see her perform and took class from her (my first teacher, Miabella, for example) could could give their perspective.
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 7:00 AMoh yah I remember watching that movie just to see how the bellydancing was portrayed and I was like oh god....:(
i was disappointed lol
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 1:41 PMIf you watch the movie, as the stripper is dancing (pretending to be a belly dancer), one of Charlie's guys whispers to another "I never saw belly dance like THAT before". The way he says it makes it clear that they all know it is a stripper, not a belly dancer.
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 4:28 PMSigh... Each time I come here it's a different thing! lol!
I'll post again when you guys settle this :D
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 8:41 PMShe was stripper....no, no...a bellydancer...no, no...a stripper pretending to be a bellydancer...no, no the movie presented her as a stripper but she was a bellydancer...no, no a stripper, oh no just a dancer who bellydanced this one time...
It's been interesting watching where the emphasis of what this woman did (or didn't do) lands. The real debate is not whether or not she was misrepresented in this movie, but an old one in the bellydance world..distancing bellydance from stripping and other forms of erotic dance.
You know the mainstream media is going to do what's it's going to do: exploit whatever or whomever for a buck. That doesn't mean that we have to take it sitting down. In this case, that means not spending your hard earned duckets going to this movie or renting the dvd. At the same time I don't think hyperventerlating over it's existence on tribe and all over the internet helps either. In fact, it increases the buzz on the movie and encourages people to go see it, if for no other reason to find out what all the controversy is about. It's an old showbiz trick that works like a charm.
I'm not going to get into the bellydance vs erotic dance thing here because I think there are other tribes that are better suited for that. My point here is that complaining about a representation of bellydance in movies or even the youtube freakshows really doesn't do much but add to the hype of the very thing people are outraged about.
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Re: This'll get you guys going
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 9:03 PMyheah, i think only strippers randomly lift their legs and show their crotch to the audience. i haven't watched the movie, so i'm can't say anything about what someone with no idea about belly dance would say.
i can say that in the states i didn't see much of it growing up, and i am almost ALWAYS met with people who think i do something raunchy if i say i belly dance. -
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Mon, July 7, 2008 - 4:19 AMLOL, oops, i openeda right can of worms huh.
Its the fact that alot of people will just be on youtube who watch it and not in the movie -and think its bellydancing. but hey, who cares. a dance is just a dance. you can bellydance overtly sexually or you can bellydance coyly and demurely. -
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Tue, July 8, 2008 - 8:44 AMOh, well, my teacher told me about a Turkish bellydancer in an Istanbul Cabaret who was famous/notorious for not wearing panties under her costume. As the Brits would say- "Is this absolutely necessary?" ; ) ; P -
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Tue, July 8, 2008 - 9:46 AMHahha... well actually i have to go pantless in one of my costumes or if it slips down it shows thong. Not attractive. and its tight enough so it doesn't flash fandango.
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Tue, July 8, 2008 - 9:58 PMI think what really bothers me about the scene is that it's a cop-out. From the written accounts of the actual performance, she was both aggressive and suggestive in her execution of the sword performance. In other words, it was probably not a family-friendly performance and would likely have played very seductively on screen anyway. However, instead of using a skilled bellydancer and really pushing the aggression and sexuality of the dancer, they chose a dancer who could NOT bellydance and made it look like a bad strip tease instead of a bellydance performance. It bothers me more than they make it look like a dance just anyone can do if they can shake their T&A instead of an art form--however titillating the original performance was.
They should have stuck with Mayte.
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