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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 6:50 AMI find this both cute and disturbing. -
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 9:28 AMIt's cute that the little girl is dancing.
I'm more conservative in my costume choices. The bikini top and camera angles remind me of watching something about JonBenet Ramsey years ago. -
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 9:52 AMshe walks...just...like... a woman....! (Bob Dylan)
"My God, if this little girl is such a great dancer at the age of THREE what is she going to be like when she is twenty?", I thought and went to check out her mother who must have taught her how to move, and I discovered this Brazilian beauty. Her mom is fascinating ! She took my breath away, watch this:
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 11:30 AMHey Ash,
I agree with you. I'm always a little bothered when I see really little girls belly dancing on stage or on camera. Yes, it's cute but for me, there's always that whiff of exploitation a la JonBenet. I think it has to with the fact that belly dance is sexual (I don't mean that in a negative way), and then dressing little girls up in sexy costumes and having them shake their hips on a stage or in front of a camera, doesn't feel right to me. It's very different when a grown woman does it compared to a little girl. It's not to say that children shouldn't learn to belly dance or practice it, I think it's tricky to film them or put them up on stage. These issues are certainly present in other dance forms when children perform, but I just think it's more obvious in belly dance.
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 11:49 AMI only wish my mother was a belly dancer and had started me off as young as possible. The best dancers almost always started young. If only I could have had that privilege...
I find nothing wrong with this. Parents always try to get their children into some kind of activity... swimming, gymnastics, ballet, karate, soccer, whatever. It keeps them active, healthy, and opens their mind. Child exploitation exists in the world, probably in any kind of activity, but what are the chances, really? Of all the children that are "pushed" by their parents into some kind of sport or dance or whatever it is, how many do you think are being exploited? Very, very few. Of course this depends on one's definition of exploitation, but even under the broadest definition I think it's rare to find a true case of this.
This is a mother sharing with her child her love for belly dance. And then being proud for what the kid can already do. If I ever have children, I will do the same. Maybe they will grow to be uninterested and find something else they like to do, follow their own path in life; and that's okay. But maybe they will thank me for it later. -
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 12:05 PMI'm not meaning to imply that the mother in this clip is exploiting or doing anything wrong with her child here.
I just personally feel a little bothered when I see young girls performing belly dance. I can't always put my finger on why, other than feeling bothered by watching children dressed as adults and dancing sensual dances. But you're right, I think the chances of actual exploitation occurring are limited. I suppose the same is true for little girl beauty pageants. But I was involved in ballet and gymnastics as a child, and while there wasn't so much sexual exploitation, so many parents live vicariously through their children and put a huge amount of pressure on them to be the best and perform. I think there's additional pressure if you have a parent who was a dancer or an athlete.
So again, I don't think there's anything wrong with children learning to belly dance, I just agree with Ash that there's something about watching children perform it that makes me a little uncomfortable. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 9:30 AMFor me it is different than a beauty pageant. Little girls often mimick what mummy does (they want to be like her). Mine likes to stick on my highest heels, poke her finger into my belly-button and she loves to see babies being breastfed since she was breastfed for a long time and claims to remember. currently she takes a bra and holds it in front of herself and says heehee I have breasts, mommy. She is only four years old but also in the kindergarden they seem to have fun at a certain age by showing off their knickers. Children have also their relationship with their sexuality, without being aware of it. It is not "bad" and neither unnatural or unhealthy.
Another thing is, that we maybe feel that the sensual thing is sinful and should be kept away from "innocent children". My kiddie just loves to bellydance and she copies from what she sees in clips (even a cane trick, I couldn't believe it), she likes to show off in front of me and is really creative in the way she integrates accessories (toys, baby-towels, a hoola-hoop-ring etc.). I am amazed and it can be so amusing. I have never told her to do anything (which she would also refuse).
The naked thing: On the caribbean isles people run around in things that look like bathing suits or with bikini bra tops (in their leisure time) also children. Hot countries often don't have an issue with more naked flesh than usual for us frozen noses... (ok forget the muslim countries here).
I don't like it though when they dress up children to show them off professionally, in tv shows or so. That to me is unethical. -
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Re: just too cute
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 11:46 PMReminds me, Nuria: when my cousin was little her Mom bought her a bikini in Italy that had some writing across the butt, on the back of those tiny little pants (she was about 7): "Niente male, vero?" meaning:"Not bad, eh?" I thought, it was the cheekiest thing a little kid could wear, and admired the gumption and sense of humour of the Italians. We went to the beach in Spain like that. And no, nothing whatsoever happened to her ! ; )
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 12:07 PMMy child dances. She dances well. Just not in the bikini top/skimpy outfit. And not on you tube for all to see. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 1:26 PMWell, it was a private situation, she was not on tv. Also it was a bellydancing top with fringe and so, kid's size. Should that be a problem, especially in a country whose carnival is famous apart from great dancing for scarce textile use? What publicity on youtube is concerned: there are zillions of clips so I think the attention one clip can get is rather limited.
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 7:34 PMi deff. agree that dance for kids should be taught/presented in an appropriate way, but i wouldn't begrudge them the fun. probably the venue and costuming have a lot to do with whether it is appropriate or not.
i know of a girl whose family pushed sports from a very young age (i think it was soccer) and she now has severe spinal trauma from over training, i don't know the details. belly dance is certainly safer/easier on the body than soccer, but still kids bodies can't take hard core training that fully grown bodies can.
on a positive note, here are some ladies who have been dancing since... i think i read 2 or 3 years old:
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
also, bd instills confidence which girls in our culture desperately need. if anything, it's likely to keep them from becoming destructively sexual in their tween/teen/young adult lives.
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 8:09 PMvery adorable but I would not put it out on public Youtube.. to many perverted weirdos out there. -
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Re: just too cute
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 9:10 PMthat reminds me: anyone considering a party for their daughters at Libby Lou, think hard. my friend, who is studying criminal justice told me pervs will go there and film the dances they do. (at our mall the dances happen in the hall outside the "salon") in my opinion that is an example of inappropriate. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 8:53 AMI understand your worries but on the other hand you have to understand that the whole world is not necessarily like the US, and that basically, bellydance comes from a culture where it is likely to be considered quite natural for little girls to dance. Not necessarily in public but dance they do. One of the best bellydance performances I have ever seen was given by a little girl that looked about 7 years old, a daughter of carpet weavers in a Turkish mountain village, given for a group of tourists (us) who were touring Turkey to learn more about bellydance. In Turkey they sell bellydance costumes for children everywhere, small enough to fit a 4-7 year old. Really cute little things made of chiffony material and golden coins, mostly. I bought one in Istanbul airport in the souvenir shop and gave it to the two year old daughter of my friend as a souvenir, she loves it and puts it on and dances in it every day. ; )
In another shop in a Turkish resort I bought a Turkish folklore dance costume for a little boy and gave it to the little son of my bellydance teacher.
I once talked a little Kurdish girl into joining me while I was practising bellydance just for fun, playing Ibrahim Tatlises on the computer provided in the hotel in a Turkish resort (the i-tunes library belonged to the hotel owner) , and once she agreed to dance with me it turned out she knew all the moves! She was about 8 or 9 years old. We grinned at each other like we were about to get into the cookie jar when noone was watching... -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 9:40 AMAstrid...
"on the other hand you have to understand that the whole world is not necessarily like the US,"
if you think it is only the US with pedifiles.. check your local arrest reports..There was a pediatrician arrested for being a pedifile in Japan. The most "wanted" is is Thailand...they are all over the world. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 10:32 AMI'm not objecting to children belly dancing. I don't not believe children need to be protected from all sexual things or nudity. My first belly dance classes had children in them. A muscian's daughter would come and join us. I think that's great if that's what children want to do. You can look in my profile and see pictures of me at about 9 dressed in a belly dance costume dancing around my living room.
The aspect (the only one) where I've found myself uncomfortable is when I've see very young children performing belly dance in a formal setting or on film. I don't know that I think it's wrong per se, but I think it can be a little over sexualized if it's not done right. That's where that whiff of little girl beauty pagents comes into play. And as I wrote earlier, this is not just an issue in belly dance. I had the same reaction when I went to a cousin's middle school talent show a few years back and watched several groups of 11-12 year old girls booty dancing in hot shorts. They're a little young to be doing something like that in front of a big audience.
But whatever the case, these types of children posts always divide people between those who think it's adorable and those who don't. We'll probably never agee anyway.
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 10:35 AMI'm not objecting to children belly dancing. I don't not believe children need to be protected from all sexual things or nudity. My first belly dance classes had children in them. A muscian's daughter would come and join us and did some of the students’ daughters. I think that's great if that's what children want to do. I loved belly dance as a child. You can look in my profile and see pictures of me at about 9 dressed in a belly dance costume dancing around my living room.
The aspect (the only one) where I've found myself uncomfortable is when I've see very young children performing belly dance in a formal setting or on film. I don't know that I think it's wrong per se, but I think it can be a little over sexualized if it's not done right. That's where that whiff of little girl beauty pagents comes into play. And as I wrote earlier, this is not just an issue in belly dance. I had the same reaction when I went to a cousin's middle school talent show a few years back and watched several groups of 11-12 year old girls booty dancing in hot shorts. They're a little young to be doing something like that in front of a big audience.
But whatever the case, these types of children posts always divide people between those who think it's adorable and those who don't. We'll probably never agree anyway.
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 10:41 AMDevi, I agree with you.
Pedophilia knows no borders or cultures. They (pedophiles) exist EVERYWHERE...whever you can find a human being, you will find someone with these tendencies. How frequently do they act on it might vary, but they're out there.
I don't have issues with children dancing. I started ballet at age 2. If my own daughter had any interest, she'd be in some form of dance as well. What I object to in the original video clip was the choice of costumes on such a young BABY girl. She couldn't have been older than 3 and I consider that a baby. I think the skimpy beaded halter is what I find most disturbing. Had she put her into more of a cropped t or choli of some sort, it would have been more age appropriate.
Yes, the Jon Benet image popped in my mind when I saw this as well. Sigh. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 1:39 PMNuria, Jon Benet was a child pagent winner that was murdered a few years ago. -
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 1:46 PMThere are sooo many children's clips on youtube...little Maddie went missing without ever having been there!
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Re: just too cute
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 3:30 PMJon Benet Ramsey. Do a Google search on that name. Very sad story.
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Re: just too cute
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 7:13 PMmy most fun memory (and maybe it's because i want to teach deep down) from belly dance was at my first hafla, and during the free dance after there was a girl.... maybe 7? who had never danced before (as far as i could tell) and was watching everyone and trying to mimic us. i was probably the least experienced person there (it was after my first real lesson, but i had learned a laundry list of moves and posture from dvds and been dabbling for a few years)
anyway, i danced next to her and sorta coached her like "try twisting" "try a circle" and she seemed like she had fun and felt included. her mom was smiling anyway.
i've noticed that children's bodies seem to de-sexualize the movements by their very nature. their hips and waists are not defined, and they are still developing some of their motor skills (take drawing, with the exception of kids who really train at it, or are prodigies, you can guess a rough age by looking at a drawing or painting they made).
and i still think anything that gives (especially) girls confidence is going to be good for them, particularly in keeping them from engaging in destructive- attention seeking- sexual behavior in their adult and young adult lives. it's sad that young adult has to be included.... someone my mom knows took her 12 year old to a Fergie concert.... why??!!?!?! i certainly dont think kids should grow up as fast as they seem to these days, but i don't think that your normal mimicry of adults in their lives or belly dance will (nessisarly) bring that about. -
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Re: just too cute
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 4:41 AMI agree with Fariha. The children don't interprete what they're doing, they just do it. So don't do in front of them what you deem inappropriate (anyone knows the scene from SATC where Charlotte sees Miranda's giggling baby looking at her and her husband while having sex and she screams: oh my god, I've scarred him for life!!! -it was too funny). But I don't think my version of bellydance has anything inappropriate, so.
But the public thing: in countries where there is less social street life and smaller families, the distinction between public and private is a lot clearer, I believe. If in oriental weddings they put their little ones on the table to show off how they can dance and how cute they are, there are already crowds of up to two hundred people, at least maybe eight or ten people at the table little girl is standing on. A lot of children seem to be used to crowds and not afraid of them. My kid, she is really typically shy when there are people she doesn't know well. So I thought, maybe the sensitivity of what is a public situation and therefore to be avoided for a child is maybe not so high in typical large-family cultures. -
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Re: just too cute
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 3:37 PMWell I have to add to this debate. Its sad to have to go into this conversation over a little girl who seems to be thoughrally enjoying herself and I am sure it was intended to be shown to mothers and daughters of this beautiful dance and not pedophiles. I just want to add that my Arab husband would never allow this to happen. Cultrally it is not acceptable in the muslim religion. Yes belly dancing is apart of their culture and girls just grow up knowing how to belly dance. It is mostly done at weddings and among other women enjoying themselves. The weddings are usually divided between the men and the women/children. Even all of of my neices on his side know how to dance, they just don't dance in front of men. My daughters do, but they keep it in the house. Just imagine all the wonderful dancers out their who are not dancing out in the open. I have been one of them for eight years, but I am american, and I have found that I need this hobby for me. My husband will never support me. but I also agree with him that there is time and place for everything. I wouldn't go wearing a bikini in the mall, and I wouldn't dance in a situation where people do not understand the dance and whats intended for. I also wouldn't display my precious girls on internet. -
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Re: just too cute
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 11:37 PMI think, it might help to weigh priorities and statistical probabilities here. Ok, there are some pedophiles around, and a number of perverts are surfing the internet. On the other hand we have the endless amounts of fun bellydance provides for aduilts as well as little girls. All the health benefits and what it does to their self confidence, energy flow and sense of grace. Now what are the probabilities that the odd pedophile may discover and download this one particular video amongst thousands, somehow manage to find out where she is and travel down to Brazil and get his hands on this girl because she was dancing in a beaded bikini?
I don't know, but I mean, come on... Yes, I have had a "belly fetishist" subscribe to one of my videos once and when I had a look at his other subscriptions I deleted him, the same day, probably. Now does this mean, I will stop uploading things to youtube for my friends to watch? No.
How many kids have the chance to end up like Jon Benet where they still don't know who did it exactly but have certain suspicions I would rather not mention here? Would a pedophile choose a bellydancer over a little beauty show contestant dolled up to look like a miniature Barbie Doll? Would a pedophile not rather just grab the next kid he finds on the nearest playground and can get his hands on, even if she is properly dressed and not wearing a beaded bikini?
Does one pedophile that got into the media in Japan (20 years ago?) mean, that Japan has exactly the same culture regarding sexuality like the US, and the rest of the world does too? Does the existence of a pedophile say anything about his country's culture at all, or do the worries say more about the worrier? Questions over questions.
I think, it might help to put things into perspective a little before you condemn a Brazilian dancing Mom for letting her husband (my guess, the same cameraman obviously who filmed the mother) film her daughter wearing a mini version of her own costume and uploading it to youtube. -
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Re: just too cute
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 6:14 AMIn no way did I condemn this mother. I just said *I* wouldn't put it on YouTube. -
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Re: just too cute
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 9:20 AMI agree, I don't think anyone here has condemned the mother or said that children should not belly dance.
I simply meant that sometimes, when I see young girls performing in a formal setting (i.e. on stage or on film) it can cross a bit of line for me. I'm certain, when children dance, it's purely innocent, I don't think it's morally damaging them or giving them impure thoughts or impulses. It's more an observer issue. Women are so highly sexualized in our culture and most cultures for that matter, and then we're doing it to little girls... And that goes for other dance forms as well. I've seem some really young girls doing jazz and hip hop that I thought was really pushing it.
Anyway, I'm ready to be done with this thread. As I said, these vids with little kids tend to be very divisive. -
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Re: just too cute
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 9:14 PM"As I said, these vids with little kids tend to be very divisive."
I guess so! I hadn't imagined it be such when I first posted the link. I just found it very cute, her obvious joy as she danced and her attempts to obviously imitate her mom and other dancers she's no doubt seen as well... Had I knew this would be such a hot topic I probably would not have opened this obvious can of worms. Sheesh. Sorry.
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Re: just too cute
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 2:46 AMOk there has to be a bit of awareness what could happen through youtube, I think a lot of people don't really think about it. Just parental pride. But take also into consideration that latin América has a lot more positive view on the sensual thing than the orient. Sensual behaviour is an inseparable part of being a woman there, and it doesn't need to be hidden! Feminine sensuality is appreciated as an embellishment of life and women are expected to make something out of it! I think that's nice, I agree with it. I thank feminists though also for not having to walk on high heels from morning to night or plastic surgery.
but is it thanks to pedophiles that western prudity will shake hands with oriental ideas on what is considered decourous behaviour or haram/halal for females?
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