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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 1:52 PMOh she is great. It was a total pleasure to watch and one of the few clips I enjoyed from the beginning to the end...Thank you for posting. That is not really so "Turkish style", is it? At least not the style that is represented by many Turkish dancers today...! She reminds me more of an Egyptian dancer with her grace and fluidity...but I'm no expert in Turkish bellydance. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 4:17 PMI agree...the only thing I think that is turkish is the used of floor work and flexibility...but she is amazing, there is a vid in youtube of her more recent, she is in her mid 50ies or sth...but stunning, very elegant. I love her. And is from the 80ies!
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 10:50 AMI think it might be representative of an older Turkish style, vintage Turkish Oriental style. Not only is she doing floorwork, but the way she uses the veil is more in line with some Turkish style clips I've seen from 70's and 80's. But yes, it's different from what is done by modern dancers like Didem.
But I'm just starting to learn more about Turkish style. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 12:42 PMI think it's not really a matter of style. We see a true dancer who dances with feeling and grace and femininity, that's what I liked about her. Feeling is still à la mode in Egypt but not with TV-show-bellydancers today in Turkey, that's why she to me is a little "Egyptian" :-). -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 2:01 PMshe is classy...love her -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 7, 2009 - 3:43 AMYou are right, she is classy, oh I wish I had a more curvy figure instead of straight up and down, I want some hips! -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 7, 2009 - 5:56 AM"That is not really so "Turkish style", is it?"
Nesrin Topkapi is a classic in Turkey. She is one of the most famous dancers in Turkey, an icon for the Turks, maybe comparable to Fif Abdo, Nagwa Fouad and so on in Egypt. I do not see anything "Egyptian" in her. This is a very old clip of her, Nesrin must be well in her fifties now, if not even older. When I contacted Sema Yildiz (who is about 60) about lessons with her in Istanbul, Sema asked me who else I was going to meet, and "Are you not going to take lessons with Nesrin Topkapi?" Ahmet Ogren was one of the famous dancers in Nesrin's troupe.
My teacher has been trying to teach us the arm movements that follow after 3.00 on the video, and said those are one of the typical exotic things that Turkish stage dancers add to their show. Alas, I find them almost impossible to execute with my body type.; ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 8, 2009 - 2:46 PMI agree. Why is that when a dancer has any class and grace. Then it has to be more Eygptian.
Check out the arm work. The full body camels, the bigger execution of hip movements. The way she interperts the music. And keeping the viel wrapped around her. That is not Egyptian.
Here is another video of her
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 8, 2009 - 10:59 PMIn my opinion, Asena and Didem are not really representative of "Turkish style", they are just famous and very visible because Asena was Tatlises' girlfriend and was on his weekly tv show, and Didem is on his show now. Didem is very young and always on the lookout for something "unusual" that has not been shown in those shows yet, but in my opinion neither of them really represent the great tradition of Turkish bellydance.
If you want to see real Turkish style, check out dancers like Sema Yildiz, Nesrin Topkapi, Oryantal Reyhan, Tulay Karaca, Ozlem and such. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 8, 2009 - 11:41 PMHere is a newer clip of Nerin Topkapi in a Turkish tv show with Sibel Can:
www.youtube.com/watch
The poster's comment is:
"Oryantel ögrenmek isteyenler buraya.. :)" meaning, I figure, something this: "Those who want to learn Oryantal (Turkish bellydance) style, look here! ; )" Their lesson makes me smile too. Mashallah, Turks can be so sexy and fun!
Here is Sibel Can alone:
www.youtube.com/watch
and here is Prenses Banu, the "Turkish interpreter of Egyptian style", lol. what if the Egyptian morality police saw her? ; )
www.youtube.com/watch
floorshow with all the "forbidden moves": www.youtube.com/watch
and here is Ozlem in yet another Ibrahim Tatlises tv show:
www.youtube.com/watch
Tatlises is from Sanliurfa, a city full of Kurds, and this is what the Kurds and everyone else in Turkish loves to watch at home, even if some of them tell their wives and sisters to wear a headscarf when they go out, and tell tourists like me that bellydance is only for floozeys. ; )
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 3:26 AMHi you hotheaded lovers of Turkish style ;-),
don't get me wrong. I know Nesrin is a myth in Turkey. Yet to me, her dancing in my eyes transcends questions of national tradition. Whatever she does, arms, floorwork, veilwork - the whole dance is soulful and beautiful, it's a dance, not an execution of moves, and that's what matters. Nonetheless, I still find the feminine appeal, that soft passion and grace something I know rather from Egyptian dancers which doesn't mean it couldn't exist in Turkish dancers, that's why I said "Egyptian" - please notice the quotation marks, I didn't mean it LITERALLY. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 3:37 AMThen what exactly DO you mean, Nuria? Do you in all honesty believe that the Egyptian dancers have a monopole on "feminine appeal, that soft passion and grace", lol? How many Turkish dancers have you actually seen and what is your idea of " feminine appeal, that soft passion and grace" anyway, I wonder? -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 3:42 AM -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 3:53 AMwhoever this is, another beautiful Turkish dancer who looks nothing like Didem or Asena:
www.youtube.com/watch
Maybe semi-professional (panties that do not start to show are the sign of a professional, my teacher says ; ) ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 4:06 AMFor comparison, here you have one of those new Turkish tv talents who just have to be young, pretty, skinny, preferably blonde, surgically altered and with a reasonbable amount of resemblance to a Barbie doll, last but not least in ultra high hieels which ruin their shimmies... and no smile, like didem or Asena. And this is where you may have been getting your impression of Turkish bellydance from but this is thank god by far not all there is to Oryantal style:
www.youtube.com/watch
But sadly, Turkey is not alone in the like of dancers like this one, I am afraid... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 4:51 AMYou missed me, didn't you? I promise I'll watch your clips later, now I've got to work... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 6:45 AMNo, I did not miss you one bit. How can one not enjoy space to breathe? -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:12 AMwish i didnt post that video. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:41 AMI am glad you did, it was beautiful.
I am not sure what anyones point is here. Astrid are you trying to pick a fight because thats what is seems like.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 5:58 PMi'm glad too.
she is fabulous ^_^
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 1:36 PM(speaking of Didem, you (or anyone else familiar with Japanese pop) might get a kick out of this:
(small pic, but it's of her smiling) : i203.photobucket.com/albums/...idem.jpg
and Ayumi Hamasaki: i203.photobucket.com/albums/...idem.jpg -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 1:37 PMoops, the second link didn't go:
ayumi.primenova.com/gallery/.../hk08.jpg -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 5:28 PMthat link did not work either. Anyway, please spare us Hamazaki, ugh! There was a feature in the paper once, a guy aping her bimboness, making her say:"Aw, look at me pretty feeengers, there are 1,2,3,4,5.... and on the other hand...4, um... 6, no..." God help us, no thanks.
Didem is actually quite cute and she does have a nice smile when you meet her in person.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 12:07 PMhm, I watched all the clips and the first again, which is the only one that appeals to me. Yes of course there are so many Turkish elements, I maybe didn't even remember because I was watching the grace and fluidity and that impressed me that I forgot about the single elements that constituted her dance. Now I must say I am not a fan of Turkish style at all, but a great dancer is a great dancer. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 12:10 PMthere's one I like her name is Hale Sultan! -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 12:49 PMWhat about Tulay Karaca, she has that classic belly dance look to me:
www.youtube.com/watch
I think some of what Astrid might be reacting to is that belly dance has become so Egypt-centric that we have a tendency to look down on Turkish and other belly dance styles and forget that they are just as valid and have also had an influence on Belly Dance in and outside the Middle East. Just because a dancer is graceful or has good musicality, doesn't mean she is Egyptian or doing Egyptian style. And I don't know that Nuria meant to say that.
But there have been some interesting discussions around Turkish style over on Bhuz recently....
www.bhuz.com/forum/belly...turkish.html
www.bhuz.com/forum/belly...ame-era.html
www.bhuz.com/forum/belly...sh-veil.html
www.bhuz.com/forum/belly...-karaca.html
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 11:07 PMthat is the thing, why some ppl dont enjoy just the dance and the beauty instead of saying is this r that , halas....at the end of the day is bellydancing for us westeners, u can learn from one or the other, a good dancer is a good dancer. She is an exquisite belly dancer, no matter if was a man, a woman, a blonde girl, a black girl, etc etc etc -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 9:08 AMSo true, Eugenia. Thanks for pointing that out.
Hale Sultan used to work and dance in Tokyo in a Turkish restaurant, but left before I started dancing. Then I took lessons at Fazil NYC studio in Istanbul, and again, missed her, she did not work there anymore either. But seeing her clip, yes, she is graceful and pretty and all that, but she stands out among the other Turkish dancers for her self conscious look (opening scene) and her slightly altered more Western style. I started wondering whether she is really a Turk and not an Australian or something like that.
My personal favourite among all those clips I posted is the one of those two grand dames of bellydance, Nesrin and Sibel in their aging, plump bodies and their long evening dresses, pulling it off at the tv show, Nesrin teaching Sibel how to be more sexy and having a ball (Sibel, however, used to be a bellydancing lingerie model or actress or something, I saw on some other clips on youtube.). The Turks have such a sense of humour, everybody I met in that country had some acting talent, and they were not self conscious about using it, too. Very expressive people. ; ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 10:01 PMwe know Hale. i don't know what influenced her dance but she is Turkish.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:07 AMAustralian? Now, where the heck did that come from? Cuz if you're referring to an Aboriginal, I don't see a single thing that could be compared to their dance style, which is very emotive and not anything like belly dance. Personally, I love watching their dance, too...but it's a completely different animal. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:24 AMoh no you didn't.... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:28 AMno, I certainly didn't refer to the aboriginals, Jeez. Misunderstandings galore in this thread. ; ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:41 AMWell, then...what? I don't understand that one, at all...there is nothing about the Australians that could be compared to the Turks...they have one of the most diverse cultures on Earth, so I don't get lumping an Australian dancer into one package.
I just don't get it...why do you seem to go out of your way to try to insult people? I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and respect their feelings, but you just seem to want to argue...you're not stating an opinion, you're shooting down everyone else's. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 10:02 AMNo big deal, Rebekah, it was simply some facial features of Hale, a line in her eyebrows that reminded me of people I have seen in Australia, nothing about Australian culture, nothing about their dance...I simply said, Hale looked a bit more Western than other Turkish women. Also I do not see how I "go out of my way to insult people" by saying, I thought, Hale might be from Australia. You guys are projecting an awful lot into what I wrote and then blame me for what you see in it. I can se why David posted his little "screen cleaner video" here on the bottom of this thread, lol. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 10:27 AMAustralia is not considered to be a part of the 'western' culture...seems that's reserved for the states...and so many cultures are mixed now, that don't think that anyone has any certain 'look' about them, except for the ones that are actually still pretty much of pure blood...some people may have certain characteristics of their background heritage, but to look truly 'Australian', you'd have to look like one of the Aborigine's...
For example...I am predominately Scotch and Dutch, with a smattering of English, Irish and Italian...and I'm 1/16 Native American...but I don't really 'look' like any particular one of those...maybe a bit more Scottish than anything else, but that can be very diverse, also...
I just think that we need to respect everyone's cultures and choices, no matter what they may be...that choice comes from the individual's spirit and to say one is any better than the other is where the insult comes in...even talking about someone 'altering' themselves...if that's their choice, then so be it...free will and all, y'know?
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 12:36 PMWhat the heck does Hale Sultan's supposed "Australian eyebrow"have got to do with her dancing? I don't get it! I said there was a Turkish dancer I liked and her name is Hale Sultan, and who is lecturing now about supposed racial features and whether she is Turkish enough or not or her dancing was more "Western"? I like Hale Sultan and it doesn't matter to me if she doesn't fit into someone elses schemes of Turkishness, as someone else with her endless opinions never was asked to say pronounce everything she thinks or thought on style, race and dancing of Hale Sultan, muslim men and other people in the first place, eating up almost a whole MB of precious internet space... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 5:36 PMI guess, now we all know why "someone" likened your absence to having breathing space. I thought, you were not talking to me ever again?
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Sat, April 18, 2009 - 2:24 AMI checked and the fact is that Hale Sultan's activities outside Turkey are centered on Japan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia. This year she will again be teaching workshops in Canberra and in South Korea, I understand from her homepage: www.halesultan.net/next.asp Events. It happens a lot that people from Australia come to Japan to work, as it is reasonably close.
While she was living here in Tokyo, the woman who learned most from her was also Australian, and that lady is still teaching here now, after Hale left. So my impression is not as far fetched as you may think, Rebekah.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 7:13 AMI know that is what I am reacting to. It bothers me when all the many other styles of belly dance seem to fall short in the eyes of dancers if they don't mesh with thier idea of what the dance should be. Usually it is being compared to "Eygptian style"
But recently going through UTube one person critiqued a Lebanese dancer writing she needs to rent a Racheal Brice video. Two diffrent styles, like comparing apples and oranges. They both might be fruit, but one should not expect a apple to taste like an orange.
And don't feel bad for posting the video. That is what tribe is for. To have open discussions and be able to post our opinions.
Sometimes the problem is that something can come out wrong, and be misunderstood. It is hard when you can't see a persons face or hear the inflection in thier voice to tell if what they are saying is meant to be a put down or comes from a bad place. The person might not mean it that way, but it comes off poorly. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 15, 2009 - 2:48 AM"I know that is what I am reacting to. It bothers me when all the many other styles of belly dance seem to fall short in the eyes of dancers if they don't mesh with thier idea of what the dance should be. Usually it is being compared to "Eygptian style" "
It may not even be compared to pure Egyptian style but rather what some people think, Egyptian style is.
Or if not that then some other style they have gotten used to seeing, like that of their own teacher and their friends. I have even seen dancers where you just mention the word "fusion" and they start complaining that it does not look like "tribal", lol.
To me dance is an art, and a dancer therefore an artist, not a copy cat or a social conformer. As long as something has an inspirational effect on me, I enoy watching, no matter what it is and where it comes from. And copy cats and conformers do not inspire me, neither artistically, nor in any other way.
Though, yeah, I tend to go for authentic, natural, old school and true folklore, rather than any hybrid forms. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 15, 2009 - 7:30 AMAstrid, the way u are touch by an artist is different for you, for me, for others...we are all unique thanks god otherwise we would be bored of the same old thing.
I think that your dance wont reach some people the way probably other people do...some may like u and some not.
we all dance for different issues, feeling well, feeling beautiful, the need to be seen, some only dance in their rooms for themselves...etc
i think ppl should stop being pointy at "others" because the "others" dance in a more contemporary way, look at the new generation of dancers from egypt, turkey, etc
a vision of a woman is different than a man aswell
for my boyfriend, he thinks bellydancing is for a woman to be sensual in front of a man, and for me is for me being happy not for a man to look at me...but then, he lived in egypt, organized events and his dad used to hang out with dina and the lot so...pfff
anyway
none of us is right at a 100%
and all of us here have common sense and a quite good understanding of this dance, so i dont see why the bitchy.
am off, have a gd day -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Wed, April 15, 2009 - 7:47 AMEvery Muslim man I know thinks that bellydancing is for dancing in front of a man, lol. And lots of dancing women I know think it is for enjoying themselves! Even without any men present at all. I have met a number of men who tried to "own" my dance, some even offered to give me suggestions in spite of knowing next to nothing about dance as an art. To me that is like someone trying to own the fragrance of a flower because he thinks it is just for him. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 1:13 AMMy boyfriend is not a muslim, he is christian and he knows a lot about the scene, and the proper one. He is very pointy and can tell who is dancing greatly and who is crap, does he own the truth? nop but then again we all have likes and dislikes about other ones dance and other ones personalities etc
"this one does it for the money, this one to show her boobs, this ones to show bla bla bla"...i think that is stupid, in the end, if u perform u should do it to make ppl happy, and yes, probably u will enjoy it yourself depending on the level of exibisionism (excuse my spelling) and ego u have. That is why so many times I found myself going more to dabke classes than bdance classes, is more spiritual and there is less of an ego.
stop using the dance as a tool for being bitchy to other one and to think u know the truth about the other person, look beyond the skin, that is what this dance is about anyway isnt it?? feeling the music and dance not just stopping and stare at someone to see if their image is the correct one for the dance cos she is blonde and has fake boobs, we never know where the other one comes from unless we know that person and not even that sometimes is the case
again we are all diferent and none in here is Raqia Hassan or Mahmoud Reda...righty right?
and the dance is not about u in the end, is about the people, specially those who perform or teach. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 5:53 AMthis discussion has gone way past "video tribe", but if people don't mind, let's get a little deeper into the philosophy of the dancer here.
Eugenia wrote:
"if u perform u should do it to make ppl happy, and yes, probably u will enjoy it yourself depending on the level of exibisionism (excuse my spelling) and ego u have"
If you do not enjoy the dance or the performance yourself, ppl are very likely to notice and will not be happy.
And also I do not think that enjoying a performance just depends on your "level of exhitionism and ego". A performance that goes well produces a great rush of adrenalin in the dancer, and the more perceptive and positive the audience, the better she will dance and the more she will give. My teacher calls it "expanding your aura all the way over the audience room" which goes way beyond being a narcist. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 5:55 AMok, 3rd try to save this poor little word from oblivion: exhibitionism is the correct spelling. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 7:08 AMFunny I never thought of myself as a exhibitionist. In my every day life I am shy and uncomftorable in public settings.
And part of the reason I do perform is to try to break through my fears of being in front of people. Kind of like people who are afraid of heights will jump out of planes to confront thier fears.
When I first started to take classes it was because I love to dance, and it is Gods gift that dancing is something I tend to pick up easily.
It was not until my dance teacher told me that I should take it up professionally that I decided to share the gift.
But each time before I dance I am shaking with nerves and curse myself about why I keep doing it. The pay off is afterwards when I feel that I have once again faced my fears by performing, and have brought joy to the people who I have danced for. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 8:21 AMA dancer can actually disappear in the dance and become a vehicle for something bigger than herself. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 10:17 AMAstrid u dont seem to get the point honey. But I leave it there for u to read it again and maybe, understand.
Can u just talk yr own instead of yr teacher's words? even one's teachers can be wrong, none is perfect
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam gonna se a balkan show now, kissy kissy girls. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 7:06 PMI know exactly what my teacher means. But you don't seem to have any notion of that. Ok, so some people dance just because they like the attention. Each his own, I guess.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 5:21 AMHi Euge, thanks for your engagement here. I feel it's pretty much useless because the fragrance of pompous self-delusion is just deafening all sound judgement.
Astrid, here is for you: I am tired of your aggressive ways and your using tribe and the discussions on dance as a vehicle for your personal issues with me. What you have said so far about me on several occasions is derogatory and out of line. It looks needy and is pretty nasty, so stop this once and for all if you don't want to gain the premium award for tribe troll and bully. Stay away from me, please, as long as you feel you can't hold it. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 7:19 AMI was not even talking to you, Nuria. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 8:28 AMHey...don't make me send you two to your rooms with no dinner...*gives stern look*
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 8:55 AMOh well well, sounded different to Maiwenn as to Eugenia, obviously, so - remember what I said. I sure won't talk to you ever again.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 9:01 AMthis is a public forum astrid and you are talking to everyone in it
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 7:48 AMAhhhh ladies!!! Doesn't all this make you so proud to be female?
Personally I don't care what nationality the dancer is, why they are dancing, what they are dancing to or what style - If it moves me, or sends shivers up my spine or makes me cry then GREAT!!! I use moves in my dance that I don't know where they came from - does it matter? Does it have to come from one source?
The silly thing about arguing about if something is egyptian or turkish or whatever - is that nobody knows REALLY where the dance started (most likely it started everywhere in different forms and was mixed as all cultures have a dance) - AND if you go back far enough, we all come from the same source!!
PEACE
xxx -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:15 AMwell said Indu, but some ppl use "their teacher" to speak bad about other dancers.
i smell frustration..hmmm...... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 9:29 AM -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 1:17 PMThank you David! i had that link and it broke! im so glad you posted it!
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 6:52 PMI agree that a good dancer is a good dancer. And it is a beautiful thing to watch a dancer express her emotions in her dance. And is free to express herself in any style she chooses.
That being said.
You might feel diffrently about the importance of the diffence in styles of the dance if you got hired for a job by Eygptians and after the show the lady who hired you pull you aside to tell you why you don't know what you are doing. Than you may turn around and study what a audience of that culture expects from you when they are paying you to perform.
Though I don't make the arguement that you have to know the diffrence. I would recommend it if you want to dance for certain ethnic audiences.
If you don't, then float on pretty butterfly, float on.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 7:57 PMViviana, hayati...i do lebanese/syrian folk dance since i was 7 years old and bellydancing (modern, contemporary) since i was 20, im 28...i do know the difference dear, dont start a another one here..........
now what i was trying to say is just "leave it and start being bitchy to other users here by grabinng a video and say i know u dont nothing about turkish u nuria " ok?
if u dont get it then fine, u do what u want, i dont care.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 2:45 AMViviana - I was merely saying that in regard to this thread - i couldn't care less about where the dance comes from - ie, who's turkish, or if someone has australian eyebrows, or if egyptians are more skilled or whatever might be said.
I know the difference -and don't have the opportunity to dance for egyptians or turks etc - i live in the middle of nowhere! I would not go and dance for an egyptian however without making sure waht I was dancing was appropriate to what they wanted.
I think there are some ridiculous comments on here and MASSIVE sweeping statements about nationalities and where this or that came from. I totally respect the different facets of this dance - but when i'm WATCHING it, I don't really care where it came from if it inspires me....
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 4:03 AMHi Viviana,
you are right when you talk about the professional situation of a dancer that they need to be able to distinguish certain things.
Then again, you have your own style, too. My teacher learnt from an Egyptian dancer who learnt from Reda, having developped his own signature style, and she learned from him adding her personal modern flavour so me I seek to learn from her and she influences me, I also do workshops with people from Egypt (who all have their personal style, too) and when improvising it will be my thing, too...whatever the outcome may be, it'll be a custom made thing.
No Nesrin Topkapi didn't dance Egyptian style, I didn't meant that, so many moves were really Turkish, but somehow I was focusing on that "Golden era" air of the clip and her dancing and her personal charisma, that was what I called a resemblance toward sth. that stroke me as sth. I know more from Egyptian dancers.
What is a bit of a pity is that competitive "I'm the pope of Turkish style, I know better than you" - sort of thing. What is f.e. Egyptian to me is a matter of the "eyes of the beholder", what I see, what is inspirational to me, the longer I look at this or that the more different things I see - it can be different to someone else. And if my words weren't exact enough that shouldn't inspire others to draw profit from the situation to self-indulgently sharpen their own profile. It's all about exchanging different perceptions that are based on our different experiences and not about lecturing the others of what is the one, true, "authentic" thing. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 7:57 AMi understood what you meant, Nuria. i do see the "golden era" -ness. i think it might partially come from the quality of the film (ie, available technology)
i think it is so hard to tell the difference between styles. i always see more varriation from dancer to dancer than from region to region. sortta like how, when they say "men score better at math" you see men and women with 40 points difference in their scores, but the 5 point difference in the average is enough for people to make the generalization. (i made up the point difference, im not sure what the number are, but the point is consistant with reality) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!!
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 8:32 AMHi Fariha. I'd say it's the whole cultural thing people in a country are on about. It's their history, their sense of humour, their worries, their favourite jokes, what they're proud of of their country, region, town...so that's how a dancer who communicates with her audience all knows, the mutual thing, so when she will make a joke in her dance or a subtle gesture, she knows that her audience understands, she can play with them and they will love her originality or her ability to refer to that common cultural background that makes them feel Egyptian or whatever. It's difficult for a foreigner to capture all that, even if they live in Egypt it would take time. But a distinct thing of Egypt I feel they love melodrama and the Oum-Khalsoum thing and their old dancers are a strong reference.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 4:38 PM> "A dancer can actually disappear in the dance and become a vehicle
> for something bigger than herself. "
I love that. I've experienced it first-hand playing riq in a percussion circle... when after all the individual voices of instrumentation became one, I heard cries and laughter of village dancers all around me -- no-one else heard it, but it was very very real. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 6:54 PMSome how it seems that people missed the point I said that all styles are beautiful in thier own way. And that every dancer should feel free to express herself and it is wonderful to watch.
And felt I was lecturing people.
Really if you re read it. I was sharing a embarasing moment for me, that made me make the effort to learn the diffrence because I did live in a area that you had to know the diffrence or you would hear about it from the audience themselves. Or just never get hired again. And there were 10 dancers behind you waiting to take your place.
I am not trying to be " I know better than anyone" by sharing any knowledge I might have. Because any knowledge I might have is only because of other more experienced dancers who shared it with me. Women that have been dancing 25+years. And have dedicated their lives to the cultural side of this art form. I thought to pass that knowledge on. This knowledge does not make me a better dancer, or person.
I just like to have the knowledge to help not to offend any particular culture I might be dancing for at a performance. Wanting this knowledge comes from being insecure if my audience will enjoy my performance. Not from trying to be superior.
If I am dancing for a audience that does not care about the culture. Guess what I do not put those limitations on myself and may dance to what ever. Including Industrial, Pop or Spanish music.
I do have a particular love for the Turkish style of dance. After studying with Artemis for 10 years. So I do get a little defensive if I feel it is being compared to Eygptian, because it is usually done in a "Turkish is lesser than" manner.
I am sorry if anyone feels that I am lecturing. I just find the cultural aspect of the dance interesting thats all.
And now for the past year I have lived in a small town. Where 90% of the dancers don't give a rat's ass about the cultural side. And that the way they like it. And there is no need for them to care, since there are no Arabs looking for dancers. So I understand why it may seem silly when you read some post that dancers seem to argure about such things. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 7:11 PMThe way people see this discussion depends on whether they approach dance from their ego, as a means to enhance their ego, or wether they dance in search of transcending themselves.
So don't worry, Viviana, I understand perfectly well what you mean.
Some people will always see stating one's opinion as "lecturing" and discussion as a "struggle" and critique as an "attack". This cannot be helped on tribe. ; )
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:11 AMno Viviana, that bit in my post wasn't about you.
I better go now for I need to "enhance my ego" through dancing and working ;-). -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:13 AMWow, Nuria, your sense of humour is finally starting show. Good one! ; ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:37 AMNow I certainly can do without false compliments... -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 3:07 AMThat was an honest compliment. Ok, I give up. I won't do it again. ; ) -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 3:39 AMOK you both should probably avoid talking to each toher from now on. Its getting silly. (Astrid and Nuria).
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 3:38 AMViviana - not silly in the SLIGHTEST - and i don't think you're trying to be a know it all atall - i think this thread is partly a classic case of not being able to read 'smiles' into friendly chat and its easy to read something the wrong way and it sound harsh or whatever - when that person is not being so in their own mind :)
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 1:03 PM" It bothers me when all the many other styles of belly dance seem to fall short in the eyes of dancers if they don't mesh with thier idea of what the dance should be. Usually it is being compared to "Eygptian style" .....comparing apples and oranges."
i do compleatly agree with you, Viviana, even if i can't tell the difference ^_~ -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Thu, April 23, 2009 - 3:02 PMLooks like I'm joining this discussion late. I'd like to point out however that the original clip and some of the other clips of "Turkish" dancers were from the 80's when there wasn't this big distinction between styles as there is today. Just because a dancer is Turkish doesn't mean that her style is Turkish. What is Turkish style? Generally it means faster larger movements, veil, cymbals, floorwork, full skirts, typically what you would see in the US or what is known now as Vintage Oriental Style. I danced it myself in the 80's when I worked in Greek restaurants. Music was a combination of Greek, Turkish, some Arabic, etc. But predominately the music had a Greek or Turkish sound and feel. There would always be a chiftitelli. Because the music was fast, so was the dancing.
But I also danced in Arabic restaurants where the music was strictly Arabic and the dance style changed to reflect the music. When I danced to the Greek/Turkish music I felt like I was flying. When I danced to Egyptian music I felt more grounded.
The 80's were heavily influenced by Egyptian music and Egyptian style dancers. Egyptian music was considered to be superior for belly dancing than music from other Arabic countries. That was the opinion at the time and many people still think so. Egyptians in general were considered by other Arabs to be gifted in music and the arts. Skirts became slimmer because dancers tended to stand in one place longer rather than do lots of spins and such as you did with the Turkish or Greek music so you didn't need swirls of fabric around you. The rythms were more complicated so many dancers ditched the cymbals. You might get a taxim but the long slow chiftis started to disappear and so you couldn't do floorwork or veil. Slowly the Greek style clubs closed down and in my area at least the Turkish style of dancing is all but a dying art.
If you notice, the majority of famous "Turkish" dancers are dancing to Egyptian music and wearing Egyptian style costumes. Yes they may throw in some elements of Turkish style dancing but that doesn't make them Turkish style belly dancers. I have a video of Prenses Banu in which she does some shows that are 100% Egyptian style. Then she'll throw in some sexy floor work to confuse us all.
By the way, the dancer in the original clip was dancing to Spectacular Rhythms of the Middle East. My teacher, who was Arabic called that the Graduation Album. Once a student could dance to all the rhythms on that album she was ready to become professional. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 2:10 AMHi Norma, I often read your posts and I love the experience in it. I guess that Egyptian is maybe a la mode because the discovery of modern Egyptian dance style is - relatively - recent, there is Raqia Hassan and her Ahlan wa Sahlan and notable dancers like Dina or Randa. And then, maybe it's an opposite movement with all that Turkish style discussions now, maybe also ppl realised that their AmCab is based a lot on Turkish influences and they don't want it to die out in favour of Egyptian-ness. I think that's really why discussions become so hot, because people want to protect the older style that seems endangered by the new one, so moves are being categorized and seen as opposed to the moves of the "other" side.
But would you agree that the Egyptians have a love for melodrama? I know there is also a slyish sense of humour, but that melodramatic thing struck me as sth. special. But also that might be due to the large repertoire that has been left as a heritage by Egypts great singers and poets, exploring feelings to great depth and subltlety. I know guys that aren't any fun talking, no wits no knowledge no grace whatever, but when they hear Alf leyla wa leyla they can listen to it all evening, stop talking and lose all interest in the outer world. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 9:03 AMI don't know about melodrama, but their language and their music is far more expressive than what we westerners are used to. And they do love Oum Khoulsoum. When I watched the documentary A Voice like Egypt I was amazed at how everyone on the street could sing one of her songs.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 6:13 AMthanks norma, your experience is invaluable.
so are you the 'norma' from the al andelus album 'belly dance with norma' ? if so nice work... it's a great cd.
if that is you, would you be kind enough to tell us who those musicians are? i have often wondered.. is their a site for them? when was that made? thanks for any info.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 7:44 AMNo that's not me. And believe it or not that is one CD I don't have. Everytime I thought about getting there was always something I wanted more and I didn't know if the CD was any good or not. I'll have to buy it now on your recommendation David.
that CD has been around for a very long time. I believe it was done by Andelus Ensemble. -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, April 24, 2009 - 9:12 AMha, well i figured i'd give it a shot since there aren't so many bellydancers named Norma ... : ) that is funny you don't have it! -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Sat, April 25, 2009 - 6:53 AMNo indeed, David, there aren't many belly dancers out there named Norma. There may be a few others out there but this is the genuine, warranted Norma--beware of knock-offrs and cheap imitations.
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Mon, April 27, 2009 - 7:52 AMNot too many Norma's out there.
Here's a newer one:
www.helenavlahos.com/norma.html
And David I may have found a website for Al Andalus:
www.andalus.com/ -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Mon, April 27, 2009 - 1:05 PMthanks but nope that's not them. the two main people are american and moroccan i think and used to live in oregon and/or maybe california. -
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Unsu...
Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Thu, May 21, 2009 - 2:33 PMAbout this clip, a very lovely example of how Turkish dancers danced when many of their stars came to USA to dance in the Greektown NYC district back in the 60's. Back then, the Turkish and Arabic girls danced the same. Fluidity and a lot of varied technique, floor patterns, etc. Also, classic Turkish and Arabic music uses all the diffrent rhythms, both cultures had ciftetelli (Counted:One, two-two, three, four five, six, seven, eight) and what the greeks called "Arapiko" or Arab dance (the doum TEK TEK doum TEK count/sound). There were even Arabic songs that had the same Rhythm as Karsilama.
I checked out some footage of a few of the newer Turkish dancers-the standing in one spot-it's more like what they call modern Egyptian now where people just do one long drum solo and nothing else. I feel priviledged to have grown up in the clubs and to have performed on Turkish television with stars of the 60' and 70's. They were damn good!
There was no distinction in belly dancing until some "cliquey" people in NYC came up with it. I was there when that bullshit started and will reveal all when I write my bio. No one knows the "real story." -
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Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Fri, May 22, 2009 - 2:57 AMThank you for bringing some light to all this, Aziza. Can't wait to read your bio. Meanwhile I am reading "Grandmother's secrets", highly recommended for those who thinnk that bellydance is all about glitz and stages and showing off to an audience from a distance.
It even describes how little kids were cheered when they decided to join the dancer. ; ) -
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Unsu...
Re: Stunning beautiful magic...this is belly dance!!!!!! Someting bigger than ones self
Sat, May 23, 2009 - 7:35 AM"Grandmother's Secrets" is an excellent book! Arab writer gives full credit to all the region (Middle East/Mesopatamia/Greece, Mediter.) and the connection of the ancient cultural dances. She has a way of describing the dance that is what I knew of it as a child. The "mass media" and changing fads has more influence today. When I started dancing, most of the foreigners did not grow up in their country with television or movies as they were not invented yet or were not widespread enough. Dancing was "handed down" from generation to generation. This is why the dancing of the Middle Eastern peoples were more alike (and their music) at the time.
The other thing to remember is the fact that I never understood why people now say Arabic dancers are "behind the beat." This is a modern term...I thought they meant we were lousy dancers that weren't "in rhythm." How it should be put is that "Cifte Telli" has the accent on the "downbeat" (One! two-two-three four five six seven eight, etc.) and that what the Greeks called Arapiko ("Arab Dance"-doum, TEK TEK, doum TEK), the accent is on the "back beat." This rhythm is known to come from Arabia sounds that way-this is where the comment "Behind the beat comes from." It's just that I hope people don't think it means you stay off "rhythm." Back in old days we just knew the music because we danced to live music all the time and didn't come up with labels/categories, that came later. Same principle. Karsilama has an accent on the "DownBeat" or the first beat like "Cifte Telli." But all of the ethnicities have the different varying rhythms. To complex to pigeon hole and are highly syncopated. Cifte Telli and Arapiko "overlap perfectly."
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