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Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

topic posted Mon, December 1, 2008 - 6:41 AM by  Nuria
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this looks really wild:
www.youtube.com/watch
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Nuria
offline Nuria
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  • Fariha
    Fariha
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:23 PM
    ow.
    she must have a very high pain tolerance. i can't even go down the stairs without holding myself in (if you do it with the fore arms no one notices ^_~) and i'm not that big at all!
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  • Yame
    Yame
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Tue, December 2, 2008 - 2:14 PM
    I was put off by this, but now that you've put it into context... nothing wrong with having some fun. If she did that in an actual performance though, I would be sad (and every guy I know would be extremely happy).
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    • Eugenia
      Eugenia
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      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Tue, December 2, 2008 - 2:21 PM
      i was always ALWAYS told by my egyptian teachers to MOVE THEM, so she is doing the right thing...even the bums, move them, shake them...but in the west, is seen as "no stylish" or sth

      i wish i have those boobs to wear beautiful bras LOL
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      • Nuria
        Nuria
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        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Tue, December 2, 2008 - 3:20 PM
        you don't know what you're wishing there, Eugenia, god that must burst every top and bra on the world and break your spine...
        But I also believe that western dancing has a preference for clear lines, the silhouette, the discipline of the body, the esthetical thing. I feel bellydance is a fat-friendly dance. It likes the wobble, the trembling of the passive masses. We perceive this as unsettling because we are drilling our bodies to have everything tight under control (as our minds, I believe). Custom fit, marketeable and once you're out of shape you're out of line...dance - our ideals still have a lot to do with ballet, and ballet has been created during baroque - you know how they cut their gardens? No nature at all, everything shaped and disciplined, reflecting only submission to the absolutist king's supreme will...

        Love your body, enjoy it and let it wobble and go wild - that's a totally different thing...it's anarchic, it's somehow like a statement for individual freedom! taste is based on reflection, thought, it's filtered, but self-enjoyment is instinctive and initial, even if it appears raw and barbarian - there is something thrilling about it!

        I find it really AWESOME to watch because it is unbelievable what what a body can do - like metamorphosis! (I thought they were just going to fly off or sweep her off her feet...)
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        • Fariha
          Fariha
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          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Tue, December 2, 2008 - 6:57 PM
          i remember my ex's sisters, who were starting middle school, starving themselves to be thin for ballet. between the strength training for gymnastics and jazz they were very muscular and thin little Korean girls, but their ballet was based on weight. at that age, girls need extra room to fuel growth spurts and puberty. i'm sure there are many, MANY responsible ballet teachers and this situation was made as bad as it was by several contributing factors, but i can't help my opinion of ballet being shaped by this attitude. so the fact that it is often treated like the gold standard of all dance is very frustrating to me.
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        • Sakari
          Sakari
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          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Wed, December 3, 2008 - 9:22 AM
          Nuria, that was beautifully written. I've thought similar things myself, but never put all the pieces together that way; thanks so much for posting this!

          "the wobble, the trembling of the passive masses"--what a perfect line. :-) And the following sentence: "We perceive this as unsettling because we are drilling our bodies to have everything tight under control (as our minds, I believe)." That's it in a nutshell: our fear of letting go and trusting our instincts and our bodies (and giving the brain and analysis a rest for a change!).

          Lovely! :-)
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        • Indu
          Indu
          online 23

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Thu, December 4, 2008 - 2:03 AM
          Nuria - so brilliant what you have said.

          People always respond SO well to women with a bit extra who have confidence - becuase its not seen that often in the west is it. I like being anarchic!! wooo!!
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  • Irina
    Irina
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Wed, December 3, 2008 - 11:49 AM
    I'm just curious - who made this video? This is clearly footage from a class... and it was edited to show only the boob action. Even if she was making fun in class - someone took advantage of that, and created this video, which I'm sure isn't going to be taken as it should be, by 'normal' people. Thats what's really sad

    otherwise, she looks like a normal, pretty, curvy Russian woman that doesnt have complexes... I wish I had her confidence
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  • Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Tue, December 16, 2008 - 7:27 PM
    As a member of the D+ club, I must say that the video and posts have been a bit of a trigger for me. I have never understood why the women in the beer commercials who are wearing even proportionately skimpier outfits than Ms Savelieva are promoted as sexy and cute, but when the breasts get just a bit bigger, the judgments and comments fly. They are breasts! That's all! Why are they "nasty"? None of us thought they were the least bit nasty, wild, or slack when we were hungry little babies? At what point come the judgments where she is no longer respected as a nurturer and then turned into something close to a tasseled pole dancer? And do we owe it to ourselves not to participate, despite society thinking it's good for a laugh and ridicule. We are all bellydancers. There are still countries where we would ALL be rounded up and thrown into prison regardless of our chest size. Forget countries... there are still small towns in the United States that despise us.

    I ramble a bit here...ok. Almost done... But just because the bra industry does not always support us girls does not mean that we should do the same to each other.

    That said, I loved her dance, her sense of freedom, fun and joy.
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    • Nuria
      Nuria
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      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Wed, December 17, 2008 - 4:27 PM
      Hi Muse, I'd never call big boobs disgusting. I'm well aware that for some people anyone bigger than size 0 is disgusting, or anyone who is too little tanned will be disgusting or someone whose belly isn't muscular and flat would be disgusting or this or that ones feet would be too big and disgusting...what a waste of time.
      A dancer needs to be charismatic and know how to interact with her audience, that's what makes it worth while watching. And a human being should enjoy her- or himself, and no streamline perfection can replace that.
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      • Canela
        Canela
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        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Thu, December 18, 2008 - 1:11 AM
        Don't feel offended, Muse, I did not mean to hurt anybody. I was just defending myself against this:"I bet you are all jealous because yours are not that big." Give me a break. I am not jealous at all. Whatever people are born with should be fine, I just hate this whole industry and media hype trying to make us feel guilty for what we look like naturally, and wanting to make us forever work on trying to be different from what we are. But honestly:"I wish I could be that free" was the last thought that would come to my mind when I saw this. And I am from the no -bra- generation and lived that without ever thinking about it.
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    • Rebekah
      Rebekah
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      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Thu, December 18, 2008 - 8:39 PM
      Without sounding creepy, I think she's got gorgeous boobs...they look alot like a nursing mother...full and rounded.

      Being of the 'not so blessed' club, I wouldn't know how much it would or would not hurt to swing your girls around like that, but there's nothing disgusting about it...if you've got 'em, shake 'em, hunny!!!

      It used to bother me, being small, but hey, they did the job that I was given them for in the first place...I nursed both of my kids...my son for a year and my daughter for 6 months...I'd have gone the full year with her, but the only way I was gonna be able to do that was if she could tuck me under her arm and take off with me...she was a very active lil thing...still is...:-D

      Now, I'm generally happy with my figure, altho, like most women, there are some things I'd adjust, if I could...barring plastic surgery, of course...I'm not THAT worried about it...
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      • Rem
        Rem
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        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Thu, December 18, 2008 - 8:55 PM
        LOL That didn't sound creepy at all, but naturally appreciative of the female form! It comes in so many shapes, I don't understand why it matters!

        I'm not ashamed to say that I am always envious of girls in the 'not so blessed' club because of the graceful ease of the way you can move your shoulders and upper, and the plentiful options you have for costuming. (that isn't necessarily custom made). No matter how much I drill (and I am still a noob of course) it seems like I just get fatigued so quickly in my upper torso and can't make things flow well.
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        • Rebekah
          Rebekah
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          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Thu, December 18, 2008 - 9:05 PM
          Maybe we should all share around a bit, so everyone could have manageable sized boobs...;-)

          But, then again, what a boring world it would be if there were not the unending variety in the human form.
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          • Rem
            Rem
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            Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

            Fri, December 19, 2008 - 9:13 AM
            *sigh* Well that is true. Variety.

            I just wish these things were adjustable. I used to be in the market for a reduction! Not as much now though, now that I'm having my spine and neck issues corrected be a chiropractor. I'm in a wait-and-see mode. ;)
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  • Rem
    Rem
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Thu, December 18, 2008 - 8:37 PM
    Holy crap. I too am speechless. But that is only because of the openly venomous remarks.

    I know you said that you were just "defending" yourself against a previous joke made about jealously, but calling that woman's breasts disgusting, is just plain wrong and out of line. What were you defending yourself against? No one posted anything personally about you or your body or mistreated you.

    If you took offense at Nuria making a joke about some girls being jealous of bigger boobs, (which is so true it's quite the gazillion dollar industry worldwide, but seriously who cares?) strongly enough to call that woman disgusting, than that really is a reflection on you, and not on anything anyone else said. You yourself in one breath say 'whatever we are born with should be fine', but in the other breath called that woman "disgusting". Holy crap.
    Regardless of how you feel about 'industry and media hype' the woman in the video should not have been the object of such extremely hostile comments.

    I realize that people may have their own personal issues and hang-ups, but for the most part here on Tribe, since most of the dancers here know how important it is to be supportive and positive, or at least fake it for the sake of civility, I don't think I've ever heard anyone attack someone else like that before.
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  • Rem
    Rem
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Thu, December 18, 2008 - 8:46 PM
    Muse, I am DDD, and would never even attempt to "toss" my boobs in any direction. Like was said, it hurts like hell for them to even bounce around too much. I dislike the shoulder shimmy move altogether and try to never really do it. In regards to my boobs, I don't believe in being "free". When I drill or dance, I try to reign them in as much as possible, it is simply too stressful on the rest of my upper and form to let them go and do whatever.

    Like Fariha, I don't even allow them too much bouncing going down stairs. And like Nuria mentioned, I do burn through a lot of bras. LOL

    Really, I don't understand why everybody assumes having huge ones is so great. It's hard on your body and you get a lot of unwanted attention and often downright inappropriate attention. I have never had an instructor here that was larger than a B cup I don't think, and a lot of the chest moves they demonstrate don't look the same on me as it does on them so I'm always having to mentally adjust and wonder if I'm doing it correctly at all. *sigh*
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    • Fariha
      Fariha
      online 20

      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Fri, December 19, 2008 - 3:18 PM
      "and a lot of the chest moves they demonstrate don't look the same on me as it does on them so I'm always having to mentally adjust and wonder if I'm doing it correctly at all. *sigh* "

      have you found any materials that give really good muscular explanations? (ie, vertical chest circle: slide your rib cage to the side by contracting the muscles at your bra band under your arm, lift with the muscles between your shoulder blades, slide, drop by releasing your back and contracting your upper-most abdomen") that might help some. if you're able to learn techniques from just watching, you got much more skillz than me ^_~ cruising youtube might be useful too ^_^
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      • Rem
        Rem
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        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Fri, December 19, 2008 - 7:17 PM
        :D Yes, I can learn from just watching, but I also have a some anatomy knowledge, so when the teacher says to slide, I know what muscle(s) is supposed to be moving it. Generally speaking. Also, a lot of teachers will explain the movement using anatomy too.

        The problem with me is visual. I forget that the bodies aren't physcially the same, so while I'm trying to mimic the movement to look like theirs, I have to make mental adjustments while reminding myself that my movement will never look exactly like theirs because our bodies don't look alike. I know, simple right? LOL All the time I was wondering if I was doing it right because it didn't look the same. :(
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        • Fariha
          Fariha
          online 20

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Fri, December 19, 2008 - 9:15 PM
          maybe, instead of watching in the mirror, watch her back and focus on her rib cage? that might make the visual adjustments easier. as far as the shoulder, i try to move the ball-y part, (deltoid being 1/2 the sphere, shoulder bones being the other half, clavicle not included) and the shoulder blade in back, and think like i'm punching with it when it's at slow speed. it inevitably brings the chest in when speeding up, but it helps change the focus and the weight shifting a little.....
          ok, back ON topic. sorry ^_^
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          • Rem
            Rem
            offline 27

            Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

            Sat, December 20, 2008 - 3:31 PM
            You're on topic, we're talking about larger ta-tas and how to deal/dance with them. :D

            The bally-y part is what I'm working with too. I've add more upper arm to get some control over it, but I always do it slow and softly. Thank you Fariha! LOL
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  • blackie
    blackie
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    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Thu, December 18, 2008 - 9:13 PM
    my teacher would say 'chest shimmy' or circles, i'm sure. she's good enough in what i see here that I would do some research and check out her perhaps more choreographed clips of performance...
    here's another clip that's cool --
    www.youtube.com/watch

    THAT said: I have seen threads of disscussions about whether very full busted dancers should or should not emphasize what they have in favour of other assets. take that as you may..........
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    • Rem
      Rem
      offline 27

      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Fri, December 19, 2008 - 9:02 AM
      LOL I've never been a boob shaker. I know a lot of people equate being feminine and a bellydancer with being a "flirty" dancer, but I do not. Even if it were not physically uncomfortable to do so, I still would not purposefully shake my breasts at people.

      So NOT emphasizing is the easy decision for me. Hey, where did you see those threads? I wouldn't mind reading those discussions to hear what others thing on it.
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      • Nuria
        Nuria
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        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Fri, December 19, 2008 - 12:18 PM
        For Astrid I must say though I believe she overreacted to show how far she felt from envying.

        I don't think guys require boobs that big, although so many prefer bigger ones that's why women with bigger ones are unpopular with other women (like that Edie Britt in the TV-series...she's hilarious). They draw the attention of all men towards them, so they are potential husband and boyfriend robbers and must be kept in check, that's the logic. So dare she swing them round like that we'll tell her that she is grose and ugly and try to make her a big huge complex so she'll behave. Social control.
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        • Rem
          Rem
          offline 27

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Fri, December 19, 2008 - 7:04 PM
          LOL Nuria *high fives you for saying that entire post so coolly* I agree. also

          I agree, no one at all 'requires' boobs that big, speaking from a non-anthropological perspective. Many of the females in my family tree have big knockers, so it's just in genes.
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      • Eugenia
        Eugenia
        online 120

        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Fri, December 19, 2008 - 12:51 PM
        Rem, am not brave but stupid...the worse is that i have to dance for 45 min and no musician coming with me so I dont know, think they r gonna throw chairs at me...they r gonna get so bored...men dont care about how u dance but how sensual u r while dancing. Unless they are choreographers/teachers themselves...

        but u should b a boob shaker, and bum aswell...ever seen the proper turkish or egyptian dancers? they do move this 2 bits quite a lot and quite well and if u talk to any arab men (and i have many friends) they tell u to move more the hips and boobs and stuff, is good, is not bad at all.

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        • Rem
          Rem
          offline 27

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Fri, December 19, 2008 - 6:34 PM
          Well, let's see. Generally speaking, men lust after women. So, they'd surely want to see us shaking our bits. Just as they would like to see a woman naked rather than fully clothed. That's how it usually is. But I don't dance for the pleasure of men, per say, so I never ask their opinion on what should be shaking, because if it was up to most men, all attractive female dancers would be strippers. Since that is the quickest route to what they would like to see. LOL

          Not saying that I don't enjoy shaking the bum on the dancefloor, you know at parties and clubs with friends, for fun. But not for bellydance. I love strong shimmies and hip rolls and drops, but there is no gratuitous shaking of the butt cheeks, like booty music videos. I think, because it is an artform, there should be a strong discernible different between styles.

          Do you have an video example of proper Turkish dancer to show me what you are talking about? A favorite? Maybe I'm thinking of the very tight glute shimmy, which definitely shakes it.

          My favorite Egyptian dancer is Lucy, I fell in love with bellydance after seeing her for the first time.


          About your performance, wow. You have to dance for 45 straight or do you get a short break in between?? I'm trying to think of a way to figure out how it could be managed like three 15 minutes, rather than straight through.
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    • Fariha
      Fariha
      online 20

      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Fri, December 19, 2008 - 3:21 PM
      wow! her fingers looked boneless.

      i dunno tho, i've heard people complain about dancers not isolating their shoulders from their chest enough. i think it is just a stylistic difference tho.
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      • Rem
        Rem
        offline 27

        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Fri, December 19, 2008 - 6:53 PM
        Sadly, there is little isolating for me. I am very good at moving my head and shoulders without moving my chest or torso, so I know that I am not moving my chest on purpose. Yet when my shoulders move forward to back in that shoulder shimmy , physics and gravity take over as expected with my boobs and they try to have a party.
        I find that when I practice using more upper arm than shoulder, the shoulders do move like they're supposed to, yet the chest is more in line.
        That's the only way I have figure out how to do it in class.

        That woman in the video is fierce! Look at the costume!
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  • Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Fri, December 19, 2008 - 10:43 PM



    Wow. Great discussion, support and advice.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Nuria writes:

    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy" Today, 12:18 PM
    For Astrid I must say though I believe she overreacted to show how far she felt from envying.

    I don't think guys require boobs that big, although so many prefer bigger ones that's why women with bigger ones are unpopular with other women (like that Edie Britt in the TV-series...she's hilarious). They draw the attention of all men towards them, so they are potential husband and boyfriend robbers and must be kept in check, that's the logic. So dare she swing them round like that we'll tell her that she is grose and ugly and try to make her a big huge complex so she'll behave. Social control.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    muse responds: Humm, I don't know if D+ girls are any more of a man-stealer than a B cup girl. Given the attention and intentions of many "breast men", not many women find that kind of man the least bit attractive. In other words, he may choose her, but she gets the final say. Talking to some shallow idiot's eyelids gets incredibly boring quite fast. Is it really easier for a woman to tell me to behave because I have ample breasts than to trust her man? I wouldn't call that social control because it isn't very "social" and it isn't "control".

    They are breasts. Even if they get the man, they won't keep him because we all know [and men eventually come to know] that the sexiest part of a woman is between her ears.

    And thank you, especially to Rem for the questions [I was wondering myself] and Fariha for the suggestions. As a D+ girl [depending on the bra anywhere from a 32DD in the US to an FF in british sizing] I often find myself compensating to convey the proper illusion. Larger women tend to have strong backs and weak pectorals from the "pull" forward. Strange but true that a lot of larger women actually have smaller chest muscles than their B-cup sisters.
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    • Nuria
      Nuria
      offline 93

      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Sat, December 20, 2008 - 6:29 AM
      Oh, Muse, I didn't mean that big boob girls walk around with the INTENTION of stealing men from other women, that intention you may as you said find from A to E (? which would be the end of the scale?) - they just HAVE those things most men can't help looking at. It's not their fault, they are genetically programmed, and looking doesn't necessarily mean they now want that woman and are going to leave the one they're with. But for self conscious women that is enough to set the alarm going! And of course all of us would like to think that in his eyes there's no one more attractive than ourselves, quite forgetting that men don't mind multiple engagements...
      Ok and there are the girls that know what they've got and they love to have everyone looking (I actually believe that women generally don't mind, at least if the stare doesn't betray that they don't respect you)

      Ok and now to Euge, yes, there is a line you don't want to cross. Bellydancers have low social esteem in many countries and that might be due to those that don't know on which side they principally reside - dancer and artist or triggering of male key instincts by boob and bum shaking - maybe the last financially even more successful! Of course the men say: shake it! (Once you are a bellydancer, you've got nothing to lose, you can't lose social respect if you never had it in the first place- that's the premise! and I suppose wherever a woman accepts this social standing and this treatment, yes she won't mind to shimmy and tease and whatever) but the women that want to be respected as artists and professional like people in day jobs will wonder when and how and how much in order to remain on the art-side.
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      • Eugenia
        Eugenia
        online 120

        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Sat, December 20, 2008 - 8:52 AM
        Nur, I think that many great dancers dont give a damn about what everyone else have to think...we saw vids of Randa teasing a guy with a bday cake, or Dina with super orgasmic faces...now I dont think this is wrong at all...at least they can dance, and when someone can dance, they allow themselves to do whatever they want.
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        • Rem
          Rem
          offline 27

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Sat, December 20, 2008 - 11:11 AM
          LOL Eugenia. I too have seen lots of dancers who 'don't give a damn'. In the end, it won't be about right or wrong. It will be about the individual person, and her own personal decision on how to present herself as a bellydancer.
          Especially if she is trying to make her living with dancing and wants to be more popular with males for example, she may be prone to lean towards more er, crowd-pleasing maneuvers. Or, it may not be a livelihood issue at all. She may just really love to be flirty with crowds because she really enjoys it, there are lots of dancers who do. But that's all up to the dancer, personal choice. I just disagree if a teacher will say that ALL dancers should be dancing that way if they want to be considered a great bellydancer.


          Hey, this is a great thread. You guys are all really thoughtful about this subject. I thank Galina Savelieva and her ta-tas for causing it! :D
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        • Nuria
          Nuria
          offline 93

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Sat, December 20, 2008 - 12:12 PM
          Hm, the reality of the role of a bellydancer exists wherever you go, not only in Cairo. Whatever Dina and Randa do though, they can dance and have proven this. But if you talk about stars, without being scandalous who knows if Dina would have been booked as much and promoted as much? But she certainly IS a character, nonetheless, and her faces are not calculated facial expressions but reflect the feelings she has while dancing with so much sensual pelvic floor contraction ;-)
          And in life they do business and when they come out on stage they command their musicians - they are women that rule in their surroundings. They are not little things everyone can step on. Dina has been through some stuff, though and I wonder what her son has to support when other guys talk about his mother - can't be only nice things.

          What I meant though, as you said, men never care about the dance itself but how sensual the dancer is. There are enough dancers that took this to their hearts and make a living hardly dancing and rather investing in a cleavage-upgrade than ever do a workshop where they'd have to sweat.
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          • Rem
            Rem
            offline 27

            Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

            Sat, December 20, 2008 - 3:20 PM
            "What I meant though, as you said, men never care about the dance itself but how sensual the dancer is. There are enough dancers that took this to their hearts and make a living hardly dancing and rather investing in a cleavage-upgrade than ever do a workshop where they'd have to sweat."


            Oh, this reminds me of what another tribe was talking about once. The television network WE (Women's Entertainment, I think) has a series called "The Secret Lives of Women", and each show is about a different subject. Well, they did one show on bellydancers. I didn't see it, but I saw the discussions on it, and it was really surprising to me that sooo many bellydancers in Los Angeles and other areas like that, do SO much plastic surgery. Liposuctions for the stomach, hips and legs, and huge breast enhancements. Multiples through their careers. They said it is the only way to be a popular bellydancer and get the good jobs; to keep their bodies in "perfect" conditions so that management for venues will choose them over other dancers. It seems that everyone does it. I did not notice anything mentioned about dance skill being a priority. Since that is L.A. and the like, it shouldn't 't surprise me.
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            • Fariha
              Fariha
              online 20

              Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

              Sat, December 20, 2008 - 6:29 PM
              there was a thread on Shira's tribe discussing plastic surgery and belly dance. i hear many more dancers speak about love and appreciation of the natural female form and variety in it, as on this thread, that it makes me think the produces cherry picked dancers who had a lot of surgery for the drama of it. (tv always gives such a bad impression of L.A. anyone from there wanna tell us what it's really like?)

              i honestly don't like Dina's performances that much. what i DO like about her is as you said, "controls her surroundings" she doesn't care if it's not allowed, she is herself full force and if you can't handle it then you should leave (OH SNAP! ^_^)
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              • Rem
                Rem
                offline 27

                Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

                Wed, December 24, 2008 - 11:04 PM
                LOL Agreed on the manipulation and the magic of editing in reality tv shows. Definitely!

                But as for L.A., I don't live there, and I do wish I could stay longer whenever I go there, but I do have friends who live there, and other parts of that area. One was in the acting industry who recently moved away. She said she hated California and finally could no longer stay there. I think it was really messing with her self-esteem and emotional health to be in such a competitive environment all the time while trying to balance multiple things.

                Yes, there is appreciation for the natural female form, and variety in bellydance among dancers, in many cases . And more appreciation for variety in people in general. There are all types of people in L.A. LOL So the rumour that "everyone is perfect" in L.A is not true.
                But L.A. is a big part of the Hollywood and entertainment thing. And the Entertainment industry is a whole other world. There's Entertainment Industry, then there's Everybody Else. Actors, actresses, models, and others who perform a type of service where the industry continues to promote an "ideal" body type, are in competition with one another to get contracts and booked for jobs. This includes some bellydancers I guess. At first I was suprised to hear that these dancers would resort to plastic surgery to compete, because, as you said, many dancers talk about appreciating the variety in the natural female form. But then I remebered it was L.A. And apparently few in the "biz" are immune to it's pitfalls.

                I have yet to see the Hollywood crowd welcome, promote or endorse any bellydancer who looked to be larger than a size 6 or 8, or had any junk in her trunk or didn't have a flat tummy or had any extra poundage or flesh anywhere. Yet I know such dancers out there exists and are amazingly talented. Even Miles Copeland only barely did it, with his SuperStars. I have only seen one self-proclaimed "most curvy" girl on his roster, once. Dondi. But she disappeared, and I aside from one of the Tribal girls on that same tour, I don't think I have seen another one since. Now I admit I'm fairly new to the Superstars and have only seen two tours, so someone else would have to tell me if he has ever approved any fuller-figured dancers.

                I don't know. I'm no expert. I'm just saying that any bellydancer that I have ever seen endorsed by Hollywood was of one of the "ideal" body types, and they have not deviated from that yet.
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      • Rem
        Rem
        offline 27

        Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

        Sat, December 20, 2008 - 2:59 PM
        "but the women that want to be respected as artists and professional like people in day jobs will wonder when and how and how much in order to remain on the art-side."


        Yes, that is a very great point.

        Bellydancing is not like being librarian or engineer or doctor or chef, etc.. It seems that in any profession or hobby that a woman does where *her body* itself is the point of interest, there will always be this type of issue to be aware of, tricky to balance. It's just more complicated for some than others!
        Is it possible to have someone appreciate your attractiveness AND respect you at the same time. I believe it is, yes. But when the applause go up after the show, how much of that gratitude is for your skill and beauty as a dancer, and how much of that gratitude is simply a "thank you for showing your bits off to us in a legal and respectable format". I guess the answer would be determined by how the dancer presented herself.
        There are people, men and women, who believe that a bellydancer is very skilled if she can simply shake her body well. Because they don't know any better. They don't really know anything about the dance. That is why women who are not real bellydancers at all ("exotic" dancers with costumes who sideline as "bellydancer") can book jobs over actual bellydancers so often. In many cases, the people don't care about art and skill, they just want to see a cute female in sexy bellydance outfit shake it. *sigh* I really don't know. It's really up to dancers as a community to educate their own audiences. If we would like for our artform to be seen as different, then it has to be shown as different.
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        • Nuria
          Nuria
          offline 93

          Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

          Sat, December 20, 2008 - 3:33 PM
          I recently talked to someone about that point, Rem. I guess any woman who is successful if she can make people want to look at her doing whatever won't get past the issue of what people consider "nice to look at". Nicer than the many other competitors. And I'm sure I don't know what each one in the audience will like. But chances are that only people that are into dancing or have seen a lot of it will eventually get what you're doing, the others will understand charisma, beauty and connection with audience, but not really what your thing is about. I wouldn't exclude it but that goes for the vast majority of casual bellydancer's audience-member...
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    • Rem
      Rem
      offline 27

      Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

      Sat, December 20, 2008 - 3:07 PM
      You're welcome, Muse! I often have nothing but questions. I don't know if that is good or bad. :D When I first started learning it didn't seem to be as big an issue, but once I started getting into it more, and especially the COSTUMING aspect of it, I started totally flipping out because it seemed like I didn't have as many options to be awesome-ly dressed. LOL
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  • Elektra
    Elektra
    offline 157

    Re: Don't call it "shoulder shimmy"

    Sat, February 7, 2009 - 11:43 AM
    Now that was one funny clip...LOL
    Seriously I don't feel the woman is teaching anything wrong it's just that she has HUGE boobs that are moving to their own beat. It appears she's doing something different but in reality she really isn't doing what all belly dancers do. It just happens that her boobs are very big. I would recommend for a dancer with a chest that size to minimize the movements involving the chest so it doesn't look sloppy or out of control. I have a dancer friend with great big hips and behind, when she dances she shrinks lower body movements a bit because any movement she does shows a great deal. She never has to use great force cause then it would look like this woman here.
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